Thought it was an interesting subject. would like to hear a variety of opinions on the matter. I hope I have put this in the appropriate subject area....

Certainly do, to an extent. In this day and age of a game designer still needs to use cookie cutter gender roles to get a story across they fail as a game designer. Sexist roles don't need to be a thing anymore, we've moved past that and games as a social medium can very much get that across.

Some of the best games I've played revolved around female characters, like Mirrors Edge, Life is Strange and Remember Me. All capable female roles that leverage the story and don't take on a sexist matter. They are amazing titles because of that reason.

I feel that games like Tomb Raider reinforce the dangerous stereotype of the strong, independant woman and we should put a stop to this trend as soon as possible.

I feel that games like Tomb Raider reinforce the dangerous stereotype of the strong, independant woman and we should put a stop to this trend as soon as possible.

hahahahaha... GG

On a more serious note, I find games tend to either do the 'rescue me, I'm a tender lady' gender role or the 'I'm a badass women that is hella tough'.

They don't often mix between the two. At the same time male role models tend to have a similar dichotomy. I'm a big kick arse dude, or I'm a bit of a weak underdog that ends up being a kick arse dude.

As an aide, how often do you see the 'I'm a vulnerable chick who needs to be rescued' turn into the 'I'm actually a capable women who is comfortable being rescued and rescuing myself'.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 16:43:33 09/Mar/15

Ellie from the last of us would be the exception to that rule.

i don't think the sexual stereotypes reinforce real life attitudes. i could rescue in-game princess's all day long... i've never felt the need to rescue princess's in real life. imagine how much drama that would be !@#!@ hellllll no!

I feel that games like Tomb Raider reinforce the dangerous stereotype of the strong, independant woman and we should put a stop to this trend as soon as possible.

Damn straight!

I mean, she took that stabby stick through her stomach like it was nothing, yet Joel in the last of us did the same thing and he had to be rescued by a 14 year old girl. What is this madness!?

I like my women like I like my coffee.

Sweet, white, and weak.

If someone on this forum you thought was a guy announced they were actually female how would you treat her?

I treat everyone on the internet the same. I'm an a****** like that. I've found out people I game with are girls, doesn't make one bit of difference.

wow, an opinion so great QGL thought it should be double!

srsly, both posted at 7:18, I have a 2 minute post timer, how's that even work?

I legit seriously can't even 100% am done right now.

Yes, sexist stereotypes in games reinforce negative gender roles for gamers. More varied characters and dialogue would help dispel the myths about women that exist among lonely nerd types that leads to the vile attitudes currently displayed around the Gamergate drama.

I was wondering how long till someone brought 'gamergate' into the thread. What a s*** heaping mess that has become, I don't think people agree on or even remember what the original issue was anymore, its just become a popular catch-all for complaining about anything wrong with gamers and gaming these days.

I'm interested in what real peer-reviewed studies actually say about it...

The issue is not so much that "Tropes vs Women" (and so on) are totally wrong - it's hard to argue against more choice for female gamers generally - although I think they use some pretty ham-fisted reasoning and biased or lazy interpretations of games to make their case.

The extremely unfortunate, and misogynistic, but ultimately impotent adolescent e-rage directed at some of these women by a small minority has become the issue. And yes we should renounce that in communities like this one, though I doubt this is "reinforced" in any way by gender stereotypes in games.

At the end of the day, fun games are fun.

i think 'sexism' in gaming is a total non-issue and i'm bored of hearing about it

basically this

If maybe there was like a 1:4 ratio of women to men, this could be a debate, but it is like 1:50 girl to boy gamers.

Sorry but the market is just not there for this to be important.

I think of it this way. If you're a girl / woman and you hate the way the gaming industry treats you then shut the hell up, get off your stupid soap box, go get a job in the gaming industry and change it.

Don't sit there and complain to a bunch of men that you want them to change and then do nothing but sit back and give your armchair opinions.

sorta hard to tell who's being serious in this thread and who isnt.... because really, we all know feminism in video games is the resurgence of nazis invading us from the moon.

also GOTY amirite

Do you think that sexist stereotypes in games reinforce negative gender roles for gamers?

Not really.

From what I can see of the gamer gate issue is 2 things. People calling for more transparency and better game journalism or something. The other is female gaming related topics and things. People are treating it as one issue but I don't think it is aside from that Kotaku/game dev thing that happened.

I am for better female characters and stories in gaming. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think it will happen overnight. Plus stories for game are not always great anyway.

As for the idiots making threats towards people, its pretty dumb. Those people probably feel very insecure about gaming for them to resort to that type of thing. I think it was a knee jerk reaction and those people probably thought it was some sort of take over and they have to stop it or some such.

Do you think that sexist stereotypes in games reinforce negative gender roles for gamers?

I think if we ask a similar question, "Do you think that violence in video games reinforce violent behaviour in gamers?", most of you would respond with no. I don't really see how you could argue for one point and be against the other, are we supposed to believe that games only affect us if it has to do with sexism?

I think most of us can agree that it's pretty easy to separate playing a video game from reality.

Wrong Khel. I've been reliably informed on multiple occasions that all gamers are white cishet male nerds that live in their parents basements and have neckbeards and drink mountain dew.

I feel like there are some pretty ridiculous female archetypes that persist today in gaming. It's not hard to find chain mail bikinis even in 2015 which is a bit annoying.

That's not a sexist stereotype tho. There is a difference between sexual objectification and stereotypes.

Sexual objectification of game characters may make women feel alienated from a game but it doesn't reinforce a negative belief that someone is somehow less because of their gender unless you take the extreme stance that if you sexually objectify one thing then you objectify all the things. Which is idiotic since sex is a completely natural thing that we are hard wired to desire. I do agree it's pretty s*** how over done it is though, I've been turned off a number of MMO's simply because of how over sexualised the female characters were portrayed (Tera and it's pedo race for example).

Take the game that Phooks linked, from what I bothered to watch it covers both sexual objectification and sexists stereotypes as the naked big breasted women are all seemingly portrayed as airheads. Naked big breasted women can be smart too.

By that logic wouldn't the trope of the stubble faced square-jawed male hero who would be no stranger an ASADA investigation and dressed in clothes so tight around the muscles that he probably had to have sewn together while on his body also be a case of sexual objectification and stereotyping? Or does it only count when it's done to a woman?

By that logic wouldn't the trope of the stubble faced square-jawed male hero who would be no stranger an ASADA investigation and dressed in clothes so tight around the muscles that he probably had to have sewn together while on his body also be a case of sexual objectification and stereotyping? Or does it only count when it's done to a woman?

This is a silly objection, and possibly a straw man as the two aren't really compatible. A strong, capable character can do lots of action-y things after all, so its consistent with the narrative. Its a stereotype and a trope but it makes sense. Its no more gratuitous than the skinny mage trope as its logically consistent.

A big titted chick in bikini armour is just gratuitous because it is logically inconsistent.

http://i.imgur.com/7UF9EuF.jpg

Given the toxicity of the gamer community at large, at least the face that get's presented to the world, and the plethora of sexist stereotypes (both male and femaile) in games, I'd say yeah it's pretty bad and embarrassing.

Sexist stereotypes are a product of our society at large though, not just video games (which is sub to that), for example look at the Bechdel Test http://bechdeltest.com/ as a similar example. Not to mention the rampant sexism pretty much everywhere else, take a look at the EveryDaySexism project to get a glimpse: http://everydaysexism.com/

I think it'd be great if video games pioneered non-sexist stereotypes in games, I'd love playing stuff like that and it'd be great for feminism.

Rukh would you go topless to save drug trade organizers?

Buff guys in vidya, espec arnie buff, are male power fantasies. You think chicks are really into that s***?

If videogames had an equivalently sexist objectification of men, youd see every character being that 50 shades of grey guy, or like, every guy from romantic comedies. (ie have depth to their character lols)

Phooks: So obviously Bayonetta is obviously a male fantasy too yeah? A figure obviously crafted by men to cater for male tastes and for the sexual objectification of women?

I don't think you can take something like the armour bikini out of context and say it's bad though, context plays a large part. If you were playing something based on Game of Thrones and a large breasted, metal bikini clad woman showed up it'd be pretty gratuitous, but if if I was playing a Heavy Metal game or a game based on Frank Frazetta art or something, it would be a disservice if there WASN'T some of that.

Which is why its ok for n****** to own slaves

Or rape victims to design and sell rape games

watching my own daughters game online I have come to the conclusion that online female gamers actively avoid sites/forums like this one.


do I think that sexist stereotypes in games reinforce negative gender roles for gamers?


I used every energy I could muster to teach my children the differences between the older industrial age of western society and the prior - the agricultural.


the agricultural age did not differer power bases between genders - that was a new idea in the industrial age - at least for us here in Australia ( it was for family back in UK in the industrial years too though I digress )


and here we are.


what are you going to do differently tomorrow? correct or continue the thought?


I'm a dedicated fan of PC gaming - I've happy been a 'boffin' for ~25 yrs now


// my wife read this and made me write in capitals here: ME ME ME, I I I.

Anyway if you didn't understand my snarky comments, this just in - women can be sexist as well, such as by making a hypersexualised videogame where the big titted character gets naked for power attacks. Great that that particular designer feels empowered by that, but thats not what being a f*****g feminist is. That perpetuates the objectification of women as sex objects. Its not that f***** hard to get a grasp on honestly.

This is a societal issue not an individual one. Anyway think about yourself, feminism would be pretty great - can you imagine a world where every porno has a decent plot? (/snark)

I'm not a feminist. I'm an anti-feminist who believes in promoting equality (and yes, I know the dictionary definition of feminism and I also know the difference between definitions of a movement and the actions of that movement).

But want an example of a game by a feminist run game development group and totally realistic female body shapes?

http://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/07/31/5958cd13-1247-4c48-a366-f7015b1977a2/resize/770x578/ba714d208e650497839b7e40fae9fb7d/revolution60.jpg

Yep. Not at all sexualised there!

Those are the 3 main characters from Revolution 60. The game that Brianna Wu's games company recently released. Yes, that Brianna Wu.

Test http://bechdeltest.com/

LOL 50 shades of grey passed that test. Up! doesn't. If you can sit there with a straight face and tell me Up! is genuinely a bar on women's progress in society, but 50 shades of grey isn't you need your head read.

I dare say your missing the point on Up old bean, wondrous movie that it is. The summative point is it's from a male perspective, and there should be more female perspectives.

I dare say your missing the point on Up old bean, wondrous movie that it is. The summative point is it's from a male perspective, and there should be more female perspectives.

I disagree, mere parity of story telling perspectives is a deeply superficial goal. Are you suggesting women could get nothing out of themes touched on in Up! just because the focus of the story is male.

That test is the feminist answer to trainspotting or stamp collecting. Merely adopting a female focus of story telling is no guarantee of a decrease of sexism or harmful usage of sexist stereotypes.

Moreover it does virtually nothing to address sexist stereotypes reinforce negative gender roles point. It isn't enough merely to engage in a trope, the trope must be harmful (and this pathologising of sexism I find deeply troubling). The Bechdel test claims to identify if women have been meaningfully included, but demonstrably doesn't. Up! it is clear that the dudes wife is a critical element of the story not to be measured merely in terms of screen time or female on female dialogue.

Contrasting with 50 shades of grey I don't understand how females talking among females about how awesome being a f*****g sex slave is can be characterized as a positive development for women's stories which is exactly what a test as ludicrously shallow as the Bechdel one would have you believe.

It isn't sexist to say that female opinion doesn't derive value merely from being female (or after the application of Bechdel bona fide female). In fact to suggest the opposite is the dictionary definition of sexism.

*edit*
Also from that site Nightcrawler passes, but Lucy questionably doesn't. The only significant female in Nightcrawler is thoroughly abused by the hero. Lucy on the other hand isn't meaningfully told from a female perspective because she only talks to women about men.

Non-stop is in because air hostess talk about a colleague being late. meaningful inclusion

St Vincent is in. meaningful inclusion.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles by Micheal Bay is in.

Transformers Age of Extinction is in, otherwise known as "the film that has five minutes of dialogue about why marky mark's daughter isn't statutorily raped".

That test is unbelievably dumb.

*edit again*
Gravity doesn't pass the test. Yeah that thing is worthless.

Er who said anything about sexism not being real?

Things happening to Anita, Eorl? You mean like her faking threats against herself? Things like that? Anita is a shady business person. That's all. If you think people call her out because she's a woman rather than because of what she says then by that logic people wouldn't be calling out Jon McIntosh despite him saying the *exact same words* a couple of years before on his Twitter before Anita says them on hers.

People don't like Anita (*and* Jon) because they're con artists and are trying to attack people that know they haven't done anything at all like Anita and Jon claim.

gogo thunderf00t! :D

Eorl could you flesh out what you mean exactly?

Pretty much what Rukh said in his second post. I don't personally care who the mouthpiece is, be it Anita or any other person, but this industry needs to wake up to social shifts and actually change. That isn't to say it isn't, we've had some amazing games like Remember Me, The Last of Us, Bayonetta and Life is Strange that put women at the forefront of game design and story telling without dipping into typical stereotypes.

What needs to change is how we approach character design, and ensure that we have an open mind to it. We shouldn't be using women as a character in the typical damsel distress type or objective piece, but as an appropriate point of the story that shows them with just as much character development as male part. Tomb Raider and Uncharted are great representations of that working, in that they are both of the same role with neither gender being better than the other.

Why can't my female character be a strong, independently social woman who has the ability to accomplish the game's goals without dipping into typical sexist stereotypes? The games industry should be the biggest one encouraging and shifting away from the outdated idea that women can't do anything, because we rely so heavily on transporting the player into a make believe world where they can do what they want.

Just make good games with good stories, and the rest would logically follow surely. I don't want a whole wave of games where people are jamming strong female characters for the sake of meeting some social quota, or a rash of reboots where the characters are changed into females because its the current popular trend (Ghostbusters I'm looking at you). Cliched, stereotypical representations make for s*** characters no matter what gender they are, make less s*** stories and less s*** characters in games and the problem will solve itself.

I think its also stupid when it turns into a crusade against sexy as well. Characters can be well written and well represented and strong and independant and interesting without having to take away their sex appeal (that goes for either gender). It should be about getting all those qualities in balance, rather than pushing some out of the picture and blowing others out of proportion. Its entirely possible to walk that line without veering too far towards either side, keep things in perspective. This IS supposed to be entertainment after all.

One does wonder what kind of 'improvements' (if any) the major game studios will make due to pressure from activists like Ms Sarkeesian and their supporters

I certainly can wait for the next Rockstar title where the strippers wear modest loose-fitting clothing and give lengthy feminist harangues on the subject-object problem

I've been following this issue through thunderf00t's channel and largely I agree, though sadly he doesn't do anything to distance himself from the rape-threatening, doxing lunatic fringe - saying "er well if you act like a b****, people will think you're a b****" doesn't really cut it

The biggest problem in the games industry is that when sexism is discussed and talked about openly you get your armchair enthusiasts trying to deter the discussion away because they are far too invested in their hobby.

They're being defensive, and, as Spock once pointed out, they therefore find the opposing opinion valid.

There's always an enormous amount of defensiveness when sexism comes up, which means for whatever reason people feel threatened. But I doubt it's because they're too invested in sexist stereotypes.

Sure enough, gaming needs to lift its game a bit as a significant medium in society so that it reflects and reinforces the progresses we're making. But it would be helpful if the affirmative side weren't so invested in asserting their moral superiority.

There's nothing wrong with an armoured titty, it just shouldn't be the norm.

In a nutshell: you all suck.